Ways to make gold relevant (AND OTHER RANDOM IDEAS):
1. Do what they did in WoW. Gold is relevant in WoW but not in D2, so they should follow WoW's example here.
2. Make sure there are a lot of mandatory day-to-day costs of adventuring. Between potions (if they are making it back), armor/weapon repair, tp/id scrolls, spell components etc., players should spend most of their money on upkeep after a battle.
Addition of spell components should also make the less item dependent classes like the sorc and necro more in line with the poor melee classes
3a. Make all items wear out each time they're repaired (like the warrior's skill in D1) so characters need to continually be repairing weapons and armor, and looking for replacements. This continual decay will keep players' money cycling back into the economy, instead of letting them build up huge amounts of money.
3b. Make players pay a large sum of money to prevent item decay; perhaps through an enchanter in town who prevents your items from losing durability for a temporary period. So high level characters can keep their stuff forever as long as they keep spending the money to enchant it with temporary indestructibility. This enchanter would charge a % of the cost of the item to enchant it, so high level items cost more to save; therefore higher level players will shell out more money to keep their gear. Maybe lower level players will constantly cycle through gear. But once you get your endgame stuff and have a lot of money, you will be forced to spend a lot of your money on this durability enchantment if you wanna keep this endgame set of gear.
4. Make gold hard to get. Like mouseman said, there's no reason for most of these monsters to be dropping gold, let alone as much as they do.
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4) Restrict the way you get gold. You could get gold only from chests, humanoid monsters, rewards from quests and so on. Why (or how!) maggots carry on gold, anyway?
Also reduce the amount of gold players get from selling items back to vendors. Why would Charsi want a low quality club of worthlessness? Or even a regular voulge? In a world where everything of use is highly enchanted anyway, it makes no sense that vendors should pay you even a dime for the cr-appy quality stuff you haul back from the dungeons. Anything you find that the vendors would want should be so good that you wanna use it yourself.
Also creatures can drop only items they could concievably be carrying or hoarding. So like skeleton captains drop those shields they carry and a low quality sword. Fallen drop little tiny daggers and tiny shields. Zombies and most animals drop nothing (except spell components). Gold and good items will come off of humanoid monsters and uniques. So if you fight a goatman archer with flaming arrows, if you kill him you get his flaming crossbow of fire. Or if you kill a monster guarding a hoard of items, you get all the items he was collecting (dragons like to collect phat lewts, so no reason other monsters might not want to). But it makes no sense to have a quill rat carrying around a voulge, and it makes items drop too frequently, which helps the economy get out of control.
This system of sparse drops might seem to make stuff you find worthless, and they probably won't sell for too much, but combined with the item decay from earlier, you probably will need a lot of the stuff that drops, since your armor and weapons will be breaking a lot. Maybe fallen drops won't be useful to you, since their items are so small, but killing goatmen or other humanoid demons should net some weapons and armor you can use in a pinch.
So under this system most of your good drops come from bosses (who will use the enchanted weapons against you) or be bought in town or crafted. Not much different from current D2, just removing a lot of the senseless junky drops that just fill up the screen. When you see a drop under this system, it should generally be good, and you'll know its coming, since you beat a hard *** boss to get it.
5. Make enchanter NPCs/or an enchanter class that can imbue like Charsi, so we increase the flow of magical items in the game (since many of my changes reduce it) while decreasing gold players have. So players can still have all the 1337 stuff they're used to from D2, but it'll cost them money from town; instead of being free (stolen from monsters).
tl;dr: make items decay, sell for less, and drop less often|||Quote:
1. Do what they did in WoW. Gold is relevant in WoW but not in D2, so they should follow WoW's example here.
What do you mean by emulating WoW? WoW's main money drain is mounts, and I'd hate to see those carry over into Diablo. If you're talking about how the Auction House economy revolves around gold .. I think DII's system of bartering is a little more "Diabloesque." It works for WoW, but I'd rather not be able to find gear for my character by simply typing in the name of something in the Search Bar and clicking "Bid!"
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2. Make sure there are a lot of mandatory day-to-day costs of adventuring. Between potions (if they are making it back), armor/weapon repair, tp/id scrolls, spell components etc., players should spend most of their money on upkeep after a battle.
Addition of spell components should also make the less item dependent classes like the sorc and necro more in line with the poor melee classes
3a. Make all items wear out each time they're repaired (like the warrior's skill in D1) so characters need to continually be repairing weapons and armor, and looking for replacements. This continual decay will keep players' money cycling back into the economy, instead of letting them build up huge amounts of money.
3b. Make players pay a large sum of money to prevent item decay; perhaps through an enchanter in town who prevents your items from losing durability for a temporary period. So high level characters can keep their stuff forever as long as they keep spending the money to enchant it with temporary indestructibility. This enchanter would charge a % of the cost of the item to enchant it, so high level items cost more to save; therefore higher level players will shell out more money to keep their gear. Maybe lower level players will constantly cycle through gear. But once you get your endgame stuff and have a lot of money, you will be forced to spend a lot of your money on this durability enchantment if you wanna keep this endgame set of gear.
I'd prefer spending as little time as possible having to worry about whether or not my gear is going to crumble apart. I'm a frickin' beast on the battle-field, wielding magical weapons of immense power .. Constantly watching my weapons and armor degrade detracts from that sense of strength.
I used to play a game called Gemstone III, and at one point, the developers introduced "weapon breakage." This system made it so weapons had a chance to break or be damaged if they made contact against a stronger metal than itself .. Cool idea that made for terrible gameplay. They opted to remove the breakage system post-haste.
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4. Make gold hard to get. Like mouseman said, there's no reason for most of these monsters to be dropping gold, let alone as much as they do.
Also reduce the amount of gold players get from selling items back to vendors. Why would Charsi want a low quality club of worthlessness? Or even a regular voulge? In a world where everything of use is highly enchanted anyway, it makes no sense that vendors should pay you even a dime for the cr-appy quality stuff you haul back from the dungeons. Anything you find that the vendors would want should be so good that you wanna use it yourself.
Also creatures can drop only items they could concievably be carrying or hoarding. So like skeleton captains drop those shields they carry and a low quality sword. Fallen drop little tiny daggers and tiny shields. Zombies and most animals drop nothing (except spell components). Gold and good items will come off of humanoid monsters and uniques. So if you fight a goatman archer with flaming arrows, if you kill him you get his flaming crossbow of fire. Or if you kill a monster guarding a hoard of items, you get all the items he was collecting (dragons like to collect phat lewts, so no reason other monsters might not want to). But it makes no sense to have a quill rat carrying around a voulge, and it makes items drop too frequently, which helps the economy get out of control.
This system of sparse drops might seem to make stuff you find worthless, and they probably won't sell for too much, but combined with the item decay from earlier, you probably will need a lot of the stuff that drops, since your armor and weapons will be breaking a lot. Maybe fallen drops won't be useful to you, since their items are so small, but killing goatmen or other humanoid demons should net some weapons and armor you can use in a pinch.
So under this system most of your good drops come from bosses (who will use the enchanted weapons against you) or be bought in town or crafted. Not much different from current D2, just removing a lot of the senseless junky drops that just fill up the screen. When you see a drop under this system, it should generally be good, and you'll know its coming, since you beat a hard *** boss to get it.
I agree that gold should be harder to come by. However, I disagree that junk items should be absolutely worthless at the vendor. I'd much rather them regulate the prices of certain overly-valuable items, such as wands and staves. Items with +skills always sell for an inordinate amount of gold, even if the item is a "cracked yew wand." I'd definitely be in favor of lowering the sell-prices of those few items, so if you want to make some extra gold by scavenging the field, everything's fair game .. not just a handful of things that don't necessarily make much sense.
I think it'd be a terrible mechanic to make monsters only drop what they logically should be able to drop. Realism can only go so far .. item-hunters would bypass or blow by huge areas of the game if they were full of monsters that didn't drop anything they needed. What point would there be for a Barbarian killing floors full of skeleton archers if the Barbarian doesn't need anything bow-related, for example? A few specific quotes of yours:
"This system of sparse drops might seem to make stuff you find worthless, and they probably won't sell for too much, but combined with the item decay from earlier, you probably will need a lot of the stuff that drops, since your armor and weapons will be breaking a lot."
Bottom-line here: Does that seem like a fun mechanic? "A lot of that stuff seems like worthless crap, but because your items are going to be constantly disintegrating, you'll need that crap!" Your suggestion here destroys almost all motivation for killing monsters in DII.
"So under this system most of your good drops come from bosses (who will use the enchanted weapons against you)"
We already have a problem with the frequency that bosses are killed for their loot. This is just another reason for people to farm bosses and avoid other content.
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5. Make enchanter NPCs/or an enchanter class that can imbue like Charsi, so we increase the flow of magical items in the game (since many of my changes reduce it) while decreasing gold players have. So players can still have all the 1337 stuff they're used to from D2, but it'll cost them money from town; instead of being free (stolen from monsters).
How is this an improvement? I think anyone would rather have the exhilarating rush of finding an item drop on the battle-field, opposed to...buying it at a vendor.
I don't mean to tear into your ideas, because a lot of them are great and make a lot of sense on paper. None of them, however, seem at all fun to me, and I think that should be the utmost consideration here.|||I agree with everything kaeros said, and disagree with almost everything voraginous said, with the exception of the concept of removing junky item drops.
However, the idea of tying it into a system of item decay is definitely the wrong way to go about eliminating junk drops imo.|||I like where gold is in D2 right now in many respects, all I'd like to see done directly to gold more user friendly is:
making it possible to store about 100x as much as you can currently (replace 1 mill gold with 1 platinum or whatever to make it easier to read amounts);
not lose cash in the stash on death; and
no limit on how much gold you can trade at once.
Gambling, the current use of gold other than minor irritations such as repairing stuff (I don't think that should go, if only because I really like the current ethereal property, OP as it is) is very worthwhile both for the high level player and the untwinked player, especially in classic. It should be speeded up tho, with a system along the lines of ctrl+clicking an item offered fills your inventory with items of that type assuming, gold allowing. Gambling and gfing is a very viable alternative to mfing in D2, especially pre 1.10 crafting. Buying gold to gamble on a high level char has better returns, at least excluding time taken to gamble/trade, vs buying pgems to roll gcs imo.
Butfor gold to play a major part in D3 (which I don't necessarily like) it simply has to have one single significent use that's seperate. Respeccing could be an appropriate gold sink, though whether/to what extent respeccing should be included in D3 is another topic in itself. In D2c it's pretty much the only way to get +2 amus (1 enemy also drops them, Diablo), which could have made gold in D2c a viable alternative currency (it is traded more often than in d2x but only for basics such as shard), if not for the trading and carrying restrictions and unecessary risk of carrying around larger amounts in SC. GF mod should be toned down if gold is given a significent new use.|||The difference between WoW's economy being gold based, and Diablo's economy being Barter based is a result of two things.
Lack of Gold in WoW, and an abundance of gold in Diablo. There's so much gold flying around in D2, that its not worth anything.
WoW's Soulbound system. In Diablo you can trade hand-me-downs. You can trade BoE items in WoW, but once you use them, they're no longer worth anything but the shard or vendor cost you get.
To make gold relevant in D3, there needs to either be some sort of limit on each. Either limit the item availability, or the gold availability. I think Diablo will always be on the bater end of trading, but with a little tweaking, it could move more towards the center.
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Another thought would be to use a copper -> silver -> gold -> Platinum system to condense things. I suppose if WoW used only gold, without the condensed increments, things might be different. Would it be easier to keep track of 100g in WoW's current system, or 1,000,000 copper?|||Quote:
What do you mean by emulating WoW? WoW's main money drain is mounts, and I'd hate to see those carry over into Diablo. If you're talking about how the Auction House economy revolves around gold .. I think DII's system of bartering is a little more "Diabloesque." It works for WoW, but I'd rather not be able to find gear for my character by simply typing in the name of something in the Search Bar and clicking "Bid!"
Neither. I don't think mounts or auction houses should carry over into Diablo.
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I'd prefer spending as little time as possible having to worry about whether or not my gear is going to crumble apart. I'm a frickin' beast on the battle-field, wielding magical weapons of immense power .. Constantly watching my weapons and armor degrade detracts from that sense of strength.
Well you wouldn't have to spend time worrying about it, just like you don't spend time worrying about repairs now. You just click a button and it's taken care of. Right next to the repair button you have a "durability enchant" button and a "durability enchant all" button which you use periodically to stop decay. This is purely a gold sink for higher level players who are on their final end game set of items, not an upkeep cost lower levels really need to worry about. But I can see how it doesn't fit the frenetic pace of the game. It's more of a roguelike type mechanic, where you have to worry about hunger and such.. it's more of a nethack of diablo 1 mechanic than a diablo 2 or 3 mechanic
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I used to play a game called Gemstone III, and at one point, the developers introduced "weapon breakage." This system made it so weapons had a chance to break or be damaged if they made contact against a stronger metal than itself .. Cool idea that made for terrible gameplay. They opted to remove the breakage system post-haste.
Well weapons wouldn't break instantly, but over time you would have to either a) replace your gear with new gear or b) pay large amounts of money to keep your gear from decaying.
It's a goldsink, nothing more. Functionally it's the same as increasing repair costs to a large % of the items's value to prevent too much gold building up. In fact, I think that would be a better system, since it uses what we have in Diablo 2 and simply changes some of the background numbers a bit.
Reading your arguments makes me realize that a decay mechanic can be replaced by a slightly retooled repair mechanic instead; with no need for using crappy items. It makes some sense: your nuclear broadsword of destruction can't be sharpened with a normal whetstone, it needs a nuclear enchanted whetstone and an enchanted lead scabbard and trace amounts of phoenix feathers and so on and so forth. So the bigger the item, the higher the repair costs.
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I agree that gold should be harder to come by. However, I disagree that junk items should be absolutely worthless at the vendor. I'd much rather them regulate the prices of certain overly-valuable items, such as wands and staves. Items with +skills always sell for an inordinate amount of gold, even if the item is a "cracked yew wand." I'd definitely be in favor of lowering the sell-prices of those few items, so if you want to make some extra gold by scavenging the field, everything's fair game .. not just a handful of things that don't necessarily make much sense.
This makes sense, though I do like the idea of being able to tell what will and won't sell at a glance. Hrmm.. I think I'd prefer if less junk dropped in the first place. Not sure though.
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I think it'd be a terrible mechanic to make monsters only drop what they logically should be able to drop. Realism can only go so far .. item-hunters would bypass or blow by huge areas of the game if they were full of monsters that didn't drop anything they needed. What point would there be for a Barbarian killing floors full of skeleton archers if the Barbarian doesn't need anything bow-related, for example? A few specific quotes of yours:
"This system of sparse drops might seem to make stuff you find worthless, and they probably won't sell for too much, but combined with the item decay from earlier, you probably will need a lot of the stuff that drops, since your armor and weapons will be breaking a lot."
Bottom-line here: Does that seem like a fun mechanic? "A lot of that stuff seems like worthless crap, but because your items are going to be constantly disintegrating, you'll need that crap!" Your suggestion here destroys almost all motivation for killing monsters in DII.
"So under this system most of your good drops come from bosses (who will use the enchanted weapons against you)"
We already have a problem with the frequency that bosses are killed for their loot. This is just another reason for people to farm bosses and avoid other content.
Well I'm thinking champions and uniques that spawn on the map or in adventures, not bosses like Diablo Baal or Andy. You wouldn't do runs to get gear, you'd go out into the world and kill uniques where you ran into them. In fact there might be less boss running since you'd often simply be targeting uniques and their packs. It'd be a lot closer to today's system than I think you're envisioning except that a lot of the crap drops would be standardized. So fallen always drop crappy daggers and bucklers instead of dropping crappy voulges or spears.
But as far as crappy drops you're right. I think it's cooler to have more people running around with hugely magical weapons (and it fits Blizz's philosophy) rather than having 99.99% of people be mundane.
Anyway I thought it was a cool idea, but after looking at it again the current system is probably a lot more fun--though I still think my ideas could work.
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How is this an improvement? I think anyone would rather have the exhilarating rush of finding an item drop on the battle-field, opposed to...buying it at a vendor.
I agree with this too. Vending is less fun than questing probably. I don't know what I was thinking here :P
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I don't mean to tear into your ideas, because a lot of them are great and make a lot of sense on paper. None of them, however, seem at all fun to me, and I think that should be the utmost consideration here.
No most of your points are spot on. I think you misunderstood me in some placed, but many of my ideas weren't well formed and you attacked those with some efficiency.
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The difference between WoW's economy being gold based, and Diablo's economy being Barter based is a result of two things.
Lack of Gold in WoW, and an abundance of gold in Diablo. There's so much gold flying around in D2, that its not worth anything.
WoW's Soulbound system. In Diablo you can trade hand-me-downs. You can trade BoE items in WoW, but once you use them, they're no longer worth anything but the shard or vendor cost you get.
To make gold relevant in D3, there needs to either be some sort of limit on each. Either limit the item availability, or the gold availability. I think Diablo will always be on the bater end of trading, but with a little tweaking, it could move more towards the center.
-edit-
Another thought would be to use a copper -> silver -> gold -> Platinum system to condense things. I suppose if WoW used only gold, without the condensed increments, things might be different. Would it be easier to keep track of 100g in WoW's current system, or 1,000,000 copper?
I think you hit the nail on the head with your reasons that WoW has a controlled economy. But IMO the BoE mechanic doesn't fit Diablo (neither do mounts) so we're stuck with limiting the availability of gold by making it very scarce. The problem with this is no matter how scarce you make gold, people will have a lot of it without gold sinks.
I don't think the copper/silver/gold system is even needed if the amounts of gold are controlled enough, but I suppose it's OK.
Also important are controlling hacking and macros.|||Decrease need to repair (Nobody likes to run to the town every 5 minutes) but increase repaircost.
Death costs money, like D2.
Gambling.
Respeccing. Cost increases exponentially with a max and decreases slowly over time.
Buyable buffs. Costly, thus only real use if a boss is too tough ATM. (Lineage 2
)|||A few ideas, some have been mentioned:1) Be able to gamble on ANYTHING. You can gamble on rings, even though those are magic at minimum, why not gamble on charms? Just make it so that most come out as +1 to light radius, or similarly useless mods, and make the price HIGH.
2) I like the idea of purchasing mods, but there should be a limit of one per item, and it can never be removed. And once again, the price should be high so it's something you have to work for.
3) Status symbols and visual customizations. People are vain, and they'll spend money to color their character's armor a certain way, or get some sort of impressive looking robe or totem to show off in public games.
4) Add a trainer for each class to the town of the last act. Make it cost a LOT of gold, but let the player purchase up to three skill points with exponentially increasing costs, something the D2 equivalent of millions of gold. Putting it in the last act lessens the chance of twinking the gold from other characters.
5) Make gold one of the requirements for unlocking D3's version of "Uber Tristram". Not the only req, but maybe one of three. One is random drops, one is a character level, the third is a massive donation.
All of these ideas were thought with the idea that someone will now accept gold in exchange for high level items. If someone can get enough gold by selling a high level (but useless to them) item to unlock special things, rather than grinding for days, they will.|||Quote:
Have more items at vendors worth buying,items that dont drop.
There ya go. I think that if they made it so vendors actually carried godly items for x amount of gold, that would single handedly create our new currency. People would be looking for gold everywhere
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