2012年4月21日星期六

No more immunes, make gold usefull, and much more.

A few suggestions about Diablo 3.

No immunes.

At no point in the game, in my opinion, a player is supposed to face an invincible monsters. Not everyone use 2 elements...

Some people are saying to immunes related complaints : Have someone else in your party kill the monster...

But there's a single player mode in Diablo.

If there's gonna be immune monsters in Diablo 3, just remove single player entirely... It's very frustrating to join a game to kill monsters in some area, just to find out you can't even damage them....

Make gold usefull

Don't get me wrong, gold is usefull... but mostly for yourself. You can't trade it easily (mostly because you can't trade more than 1m at a time), and it's not that usefull for yourself...

My suggestion : Allow the players to gamble for runes. ( Or whatever will be in Diablo 3 that will be used somewhat like runes ).

If we could gamble for runes ( obviously, the high ones would be harder to get ) the new players could trade their gold ( which is easy to get ) for some items... because the players with these items ( mostly obtainned in MF runs ) would rather use the gold to get runes, than to stockpile mid items.

And if the gamble isn't good, you still get a mid/low rune, which can be used... Right now, if you gamble and you get a random magical item.. it's worthless.

Allow the creation of items using magical/rare items

Imagine if you could add sockets (multiple) to magical/rare armor/weapons, and make a runeword out of them...

Godly Enigma of the whale, anyone? Cruel Grief of Quickness?

Obviously, the first thought about this is : REALLY overpowered.

Of course they would be... Balance would be needed, to make the item "great", but not "overpowered".

The great thing this change would bring, is that these socketed items would be "special", and the best would be godly.

Right now, suppose you make an enigma... There's only 2 things that varies :

Base defense ( similar for most item ) and "+750-775 Defense (varies)".

So basically, all enigma made in a, say, Dusk Shroud, will be pretty much the same.

If we could make them out of rare/magic items, the great rare/magic items would worth a LOT, because pro players would use them to make runewords...

Which led to my next point :

NO MORE DUPES

Do whatever, Use whatever means you have... but make sure there's no more dupes/hacks/bugged items in the game...

The Diablo 2 experience must've teach you well... You know how people dupe, and you know bugged items do exist ( I don't know at all how they can exist... Is it that hard to perform an item check on the servers to delete every item that is not even supposed to exist in battlenet? ).

This should help you make dupes/hacks impossible in D3... or so I hope.

Why is this linked to my last point? Because if you can just dupe any great rare/magic armor you find, then it'll be pointless, as everyone will have them anyway.

If you can't dupe them... Imagine what a 4 socket rare godly armor with +defense, + life, + res, + fhr... would worth...

This would make the rare/magic search fun/valuable.

This also led to my next point :

Make sure the item/runes/wtv drops are fine

Ok, I hate dupes/hacks, WITH A PASSION...

But let's be honest... Without dupes, you could not have 5% of the items in the game.

I played the game for like 5 years, in&out, and I found 4 Ist, 4 Mal, 2 Vex, 6-7 Ums, and 3 gul.

Which mean that after 5 years of gaming, I still could not make an Enigma.

Or pretty much any "godly" runeword.

The game rely on dupes.. because you can't find enough runes to make the runewords for your characters.

Hell, I have like 15 players who use an enigma.. I would need to find 30 Legits Jah/Ber? It's basically impossible.

So, make the game dupe-free, but make sure we can find enough runes/items to fill our "needs"...

Not saying you should find an HR every other monster...

But I think someone who play for 5 years should get enough runes to make every runeword in the game...

Even if I played for 50 years, I probably would not find the 30 Jah/Ber...|||1) No immunes. So you don't want any challenge right? Imho immunities are OK, you just have to find the way how to deal with them. Any kid could have a cookie-cutter pure build and slay everything. Immunities add challange and sometimes require using tactics.

(And I play SP, mostly solo)

Besides they already said they will probably not have immune monsters.

2) drops

Who cares that Zod/Jah/Ber don't drop frequently. So you don't have Enigma. Just deal with it and use something else. Enigma IS freaking awesome item, so it's supposed to be owned by only few of those hardcore players who devoted a lot of time to have something better than other average players. It's allways good to have somthing really rare, if you find everything after a month, your interest in a game will be gone after two months.

No duping would be nice. Removing other things tied with duping like temp bans would be even nicer. If no lag and no dupe, I would even consider online play.



Make Gold useful - they already said they wanted to.

Creation of runewords in magical/rare items. I would like that! But I think the runes will be used in a different way from D2 though, so this might be irrelevant too.|||Quote:








1) No immunes. So you don't want any challenge right? Imho immunities are OK, you just have to find the way how to deal with them. Any kid could have a cookie-cutter pure build and slay everything. Immunities add challange and sometimes require using tactics.

(And I play SP, mostly solo)




He does have a point Hrus. The use of immunities in diablo II isn't what we are after. Every single monsters is immune to something, making is more rule then exception.

Now, they did add challenge, yet is that the challenge we seek? It's much more interesting to add challenge through different monsters - act bosses or things like the smith - or unique abilities - such as those charges from pindle-things.

Don't get me wrong, immunities have their place in the game, and if they let them out completely, they are making a mistake. Yet more then some strategic placement of some bosses - or perhaps a few mobs - is all we need.

Add interesting challenge where you can, not just something that is clearly a cover up.


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Creation of runewords in magical/rare items. I would like that! But I think the runes will be used in a different way from D2 though, so this might be irrelevant too.




Worse idea ever - in the DII context atleast, DIII might do things better allowing this option.

If you look at the newcomer forum, a lot of people complain about the wall you hit when entering hell. for some this is due to a bad build are terrible decision, yet even those with good builds yet bad gear hit this wall often. Hell is just to complicated, to hard for most players that go their for the first time. And this isn't good. If you can survive a single hit from those quil rats at the blood more, where is the fun, where is the challenge.

It's gone. And there is exactly one reason. The is made so that the modest player have challenges. Sadly, this means those player that have decent elite uniques or mid range runewords - something you don't have if you play for the first time. Now, imagine that those runewords would be made in magic items.

Hell would have to be even harder.

The problem is that the difference between the bad items and those obtained by the majority of the people is to large. Already now, venturing with a decent rare sword isn't possible. Imagine what would happen if they have to make it even harder.

Runwords in magic items will make the gap larger. Probably to large.|||Quote:








He does have a point Hrus. The use of immunities in diablo II isn't what we are after. Every single monsters is immune to something, making is more rule then exception.

Now, they did add challenge, yet is that the challenge we seek? It's much more interesting to add challenge through different monsters - act bosses or things like the smith - or unique abilities - such as those charges from pindle-things.

Don't get me wrong, immunities have their place in the game, and if they let them out completely, they are making a mistake. Yet more then some strategic placement of some bosses - or perhaps a few mobs - is all we need.

Add interesting challenge where you can, not just something that is clearly a cover up.




I agree with this. I don't have to have immunes everywhere like it is now... I don't like whinning about them though.

The fact is that builds are quite variable because of immunities. Like after Infinity came - everybody started using light sorcs, but until then various dual element builds were favorite for many, it was more diverse...




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...runewords in magic items....




Worse idea ever - in the DII context atleast, DIII might do things better allowing this option.

If you look at the newcomer forum, a lot of people complain about the wall you hit when entering hell. for some this is due to a bad build are terrible decision, yet even those with good builds yet bad gear hit this wall often. Hell is just to complicated, to hard for most players that go their for the first time. And this isn't good. If you can survive a single hit from those quil rats at the blood more, where is the fun, where is the challenge.

It's gone. And there is exactly one reason. The is made so that the modest player have challenges. Sadly, this means those player that have decent elite uniques or mid range runewords - something you don't have if you play for the first time. Now, imagine that those runewords would be made in magic items.

Hell would have to be even harder.

The problem is that the difference between the bad items and those obtained by the majority of the people is to large. Already now, venturing with a decent rare sword isn't possible. Imagine what would happen if they have to make it even harder.

Runwords in magic items will make the gap larger. Probably to large.




I am not sure what runewords are you talking about. Look at original LOD runewords not at 1.10 BNet only ridiculously overpowered batch of Deaths, Oaths, Spirits and Infinities... Those low runewords like Steel, Stealth, Rhyme, Strength, Malice, Lore etc. Low runes, quite easy to get and not overpowered (but nice) attributes.

Of course that this could only work if the Runewords wouldn't be overpowered by themselves. Even ptitbob in his starting post mentioned that runewords would need balancing for that. But overall I think it would be a good idea and better reason why to pick up certain magic quality items (but maybe they will make magic items in D3 able to get good attributes compared to uniques and rares, I don't know).



EDIT: One more thought. You were talking about a gap between items... I think that the gap between realistic items (eg those obtained while normal questing with few runs here and there) and between uber items is too large now. First-timer has quite hard time to finish Hell untwinked.

But I think it's a smart thing from Blizzard. That first-timer hits the wall, then he starts to look for better items doing various runs and trades. Then he doesn't care that he finished the game and try to get the most uber gear instead. I have played both Sacred and Titan's quest and since I found them quite easy (boring) I stopped to play them.|||Ofc noone wants immunes in D3, but atleast element/physical/magical resistant monsters which are not immune but resistant which means they take reduced damage from a specific element, like a monster being Fire resistant would take 25-50% less damage from fire, and a monster with Physical Resistance and Stone Skin would reduce physical damage against it by 65-80%, sounds nice to me since i dont want all monsters to be 1 hitted by 1 sort of attack, makes the game more fun! |||Quote:








The fact is that builds are quite variable because of immunities. Like after Infinity came - everybody started using light sorcs, but until then various dual element builds were favorite for many, it was more diverse...




Can't this be largely solved with good design. I haven't really studied the wizard skills - I still want some surprise when I buy the game - yet it seems like there is no other option to take on different skills. It seems to me like a pure lighting sorcerer isn't even possible.

An other thing to remember is that high resistances can make dual element builds more interesting without making single element builds totally useless.




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I am not sure what runewords are you talking about. Look at original LOD runewords not at 1.10 BNet only ridiculously overpowered batch of Deaths, Oaths, Spirits and Infinities... Those low runewords like Steel, Stealth, Rhyme, Strength, Malice, Lore etc. Low runes, quite easy to get and not overpowered (but nice) attributes.




That would be a framework where it might work.


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Even ptitbob in his starting post mentioned that runewords would need balancing for that.




Ptitbob is talking about Godly Enigmas of the whale and Cruel Griefs of Quickness? I'm quite sure he isn't talking about the same balance I am.


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But I think it's a smart thing from Blizzard. That first-timer hits the wall, then he starts to look for better items doing various runs and trades. Then he doesn't care that he finished the game and try to get the most uber gear instead. I have played both Sacred and Titan's quest and since I found them quite easy (boring) I stopped to play them.




Not all people react like that. I still remember my old day where the game stopped for me after normal baal - and that was in the 1.09 or even 1.08 days.

Challenge is good, yet I don't think the challenge they are proposing now is a good one, certainly not when getting hell viable items is as hard as they are now - for some builds and certain noobs atleast.|||Quote:








Can't this be largely solved with good design.




Of course it can be solved by design.

I think we are more discussing D2 as a base for D3, but nobody really knows how the things will work in D3. Maybe building the character and using skillpoints will not be as stressful as in D2 and there will be plenty of skillponts for different hybrid variations.

I only hope they will make the design enjoyable - not too hard for beginners, not too easy for vets with lot of possible viable builds and skills.

And I am sure they will make poor judgement somewhere, so we will still have our cookie-cutter builds like Enigma hammerdins and Infinity sorcs are in D2.|||My opinion on runes - the intended # of enigmas in D2 is a low number, because of the rarity of the runes. This was supposed to be a hardcore D2 item. People then said to themselves, "hmm, that's a cool item, I want that". But they were not hardcore enough to get those runes. The less hardcore player, the causal player, even the avid players of D2 were barred from these items. That makes customers unhappy. What makes the other guy so special?

I have been considering the design Blizzard has been putting into D3. They want it to be a hit, with all customers. I think it's great idea to take the astronomical rarity out of runes. Players want to be able to find the items they want without sacrificing their lives to the game. It's in Blizzards best interests to give access to the items.

This will diminish the observed power, rarity, and awe of having uber rare items. So, my question is: what will Blizzard do? Design for access to all the items? Or go back to the D2 method of having items that have shock and awe abilty?

Choosing one will hurt the other. I'd like to hear opinions.|||About runes...

Ok they are very rare now. Perhaps to rare but they should carefully change it. Imagine that making of Enigma will take about one week... sth like that. Then all of you will just use enigma. What is the point of uniques then ?

Ok everybody is using enigma and uniqe armors are bad anyway....

Imagine that you can have grief or EBOTD or Faith each week will you use sth else instead ?

They should stay rare. More reasonable but still rare.

About Runewords in rares...

Sorry but it is too much. And also i think that runes willl have different purpose now.

About Gold...

Yes Yes Yes - much more uses for it . And much harder to find. Make it real currency for Bnet.

And about immunes....

They are ok|||Quote:








Enigma IS freaking awesome item, so it's supposed to be owned by only few of those hardcore players who devoted a lot of time to have something better than other average players.




Agreed... But I played 5 years, and I didn't even found one of the two HR in enigma... My friend ( who played like 4 years, mostly with me ) didn't found them either...

I don't say you should found them once a week...

But after 5 years of gaming, I think it would be more than reasonnable to be able to make the runeword you want ( legit )...


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No duping would be nice. Removing other things tied with duping like temp bans would be even nicer. If no lag and no dupe, I would even consider online play.




Damn, I was supposed to talk about this too, forgot it in my post.

Getting temp-banned for the wrong reason is really annoying...

Especially when you see bots in every game you join...

I hope this will be fixed.

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Also, regarding the "runewords in magic/rare items" idea...

The "godly enigma of the whale" was just an example... This is what I say those items would need to be balanced while thinking of the runewords you can get out of them.

The main idea is that this way, you could find magical/rare items that would be worth a lot if you sell them, or drastically improve your character if you use them.

Right now, the runeword making isn't as great as it would be... Let's say you make an enigma out of an archon plate...

Worst possible enigma :

*lots of awesome mods + 1160 defense*

Best possible enigma :

*lots of awesome mods + 1378 defense*

The godliest enigma ever only has this... 200 more defense.

The rune words, in my suggestion, would need to be a bit weaker ( the runewords mods ), so with the base item mods, they would get similar...

The difference is that if you make them out of a white item, you get the runewords mods, but nothing else...

If you make them out of a godly plate of the whale, you get the runewords mods, AND the item mods...

Which would make people play a hefty price for those great magic items, or rare items...

Imagine finding a rare armor with all good stats ( life, res, fhr.. ).

It would be an awesome find...

Right now, it's charsi food.

It would give a use for these items, and it'd be fun to hunt them...

Considering there's like MILLIONS of possibility for rare items, it would sure be more interresting than "will I get 775 def, or 750?" which doesn't change anything expect for the item worth...

Or to explain it differently...

I'm sure we all found an item... You know, the kind of item that make you think WOW! These items with perfect mods (100 life, and so on )... and then you drop it on the ground/charsi it. Because there's nothing to do with these "wow" items.

With this thing, those items would be awesome.

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