If you have the runes to make enigma then there is no decision really. No other item in the game gives you what that item does. I will admit that if it were rarer then I probably would have never got to the point of realizing how OP it was because odds are good I never would have run into one. I am of the school of thought though that no one item should be the absolute best in every way (kinda the same discussion about AF vs Rares, except I think we both agree that while AF is probably too good for its rarity, it is not the best at everything); which Enigma comes very close to being the absolute best pvp item imaginable.|||Quote:
If you have the runes to make enigma then there is no decision really. No other item in the game gives you what that item does. I will admit that if it were rarer then I probably would have never got to the point of realizing how OP it was because odds are good I never would have run into one. I am of the school of thought though that no one item should be the absolute best in every way (kinda the same discussion about AF vs Rares, except I think we both agree that while AF is probably too good for its rarity, it is not the best at everything); which Enigma comes very close to being the absolute best pvp item imaginable.
But this is assuming that everyone who finds both Ber and Jah to make enigma, find them at exactly the same time.
Imagine it more realistically, you're PvMing along, and you find a Ber (for arguments sake).
After the initial shock and excitement wears off, you start to have a think about it. What exactly can you use it for?
So you make a list;
Beast
Chains of Honor
Enigma
Eternity
Destruction
Infinity
Last Wish
Wrath
Now, out of these, Beast, Eternity and Chains of Honor are about the only realistically possibly runewords to create (due to the others requiring at least one more High Rune).
How many people are going to hold onto the Ber without making a runeword (When both Beast and CoH are so attractive)? Very few I doubt.
I'm not disagreeing that Enigma is OP, but rather that its OK that its OP, or it would be if duping wasn't prevalent.|||In Sp, sure. Really though most people would probably run out and trade off the Ber for a small fortune though, allowing someone else who already has Jah to make the RW.
I DO buy the argument that it is very very inspiring to have a nearly unattainable, very good item out there. It's just bad for pvp balance, of which d2 has precious little anyways.|||Quote:
I looked all over the place but haven't seen this idea posted anywhere. Sorry if it's already been brought up somewhere.
I'd like to see it possible for some rares to be better than uniques so that not every character ends up with the EXACT same setup. There was nothing better than the classic D2 days of looking for that perfect dual leech sword or ring. Or seeing someone else kicking *** in PVP games and just wondering what the hell they have.
The uniques, charms and runewords in D2 LOD got to be pretty ridiculous. I mean enigma, come on...
I'd like to see badass, random rares in D3.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i agree 100%.
Rares are badass.|||Quote:
I'd like to see it possible for some rares to be better than uniques so that not every character ends up with the EXACT same setup.
I disagree. The end effect will be the same. Everyone using build W will have XXX YYY of ZZZ with the difference that your A modifier has +350% and someone else's has +345%. There's always THE best build and THE best gear for that particular purpose. And if it's PvP people WILL go crazy and WILL play/trade long enough to get that gear. It will take longer, but IMHO it's just a matter of time. And if you make that time exremely long, you will kill SP.
A few words from a SP-only perspective. This means that I don't care what gear other people have. I care about enjoying the game.
SP players desperatly need something like "item gallery" - an infinite stash shared between characters. This will happen this way or another, I'm just hoping for a built-in feature (and not standalone app like ATMA or GoMule). Without it, not much one can really do.
My ideas.
Uniques
Very, very cool if you finally lay your hands on your own Windforce. BUT again, this is sooo hard to get.
- keep them as it is with fixed modifiers
- hard to find uniques = hi-end gear
Set items
Keep them, collecting the whole set is cool.
- make players really want the whole set:
* make bigger sets
* some sort of synergies or more mods per # of items
- make the mods on set items clvl dependant, so that a nice set can be carried to the end (Hell) of the game.
Runes
Cubing and making runewords is really, really cool. BUT getting Ists is difficult, not mentioning Zods.
- make a rune for every mod in the game
- each rune should have 5 quality levels just like gems now
- keep rune drop MF-independant:
* more you play, more runes you find
* but make rune drops more often so that all can be found
- change rune upgrading:
* divide runes into 5-10 categories
* 2 same runes -> 1 same rune with higher quality
* 3 same runes -> 1 random rune from the same category with lower quality
* 4 same runes -> 1 random rune from one level higher category with lower quality
Magic
- keep them
- 1-2 mods
- ability to reroll all mods
Rares
- keep them
- 2-5 mods
- ability to reroll the CHOSEN mod:
* rerolling using runes/gems
* rerolling mod makes it drop value, e.g. you end up with 5% ED
* with enought patience/runes/gems be able to have desired mods
- ability to UPGRADE chosen mod:
* cubing with item with a given mod or with the right rune
* upgrade is done by some percent up to some given limit
* to get the max value of the mod one has to upgrade it a few times (maybe diminishing returns)
And finally: make the best rare, best set and best uniques equally good.|||Equally good & equally different, I would say.
M + R: Magic and rares, I wouldn't change much from the formula used in D2 apart from maybe have less of them.
U + S: Uniques and Sets however, I would.
Uniques should bring something unique to the game / style and tactics of your play. Give you an edge, but also be less powerful in other areas say versus a super rare. In short, unique mods for unique items.
One gripe I always had with diablo and rpgs reg. unique powerful weapons was that one identify from wise man john or a scroll, and you know all the mods and spots on any given item. I find it too demystifying. If it can be done without it being annoying and a time waster, why not have it reveal items upon use and possibly unlock new mods as you use it and you become "one" with the item? This can be handled easily with use and leveling and would present an interesting journey in itself.
Sets are fun, but I think a lot can be done to make them more fun to use. I like to think of sets of items being such that are so closely bound magically that they can sense when one of its "kin" is near. Imagine having a set ring with certain nice mods, now enter character with a set ring of the same kind, all hell breaks loose and each of the set items want to rebind with the other, so they magically infuse the bearer with a unique power for the duration of this fight (from which there is no escape perhaps).
The winner of the duel will wield two rings of this set obviousy, and following the idea of "bits of intellect" in the items, the bearer could receive a new random bonus towards the kind of monster/char the slain bearer represent.
This could even go on to become a build up of power based on the number of that specific monster/char type slain while wearing the double ring set.
This could happen in other ways, but the general idea is to bring a certain randomness to the item based on the experiences of the hero and thus the items.
The goal of the set is to become one with the entire item set again, and so should it of course be for the bearer.
Another idea with sets could be the making of your own set. This could also be done in a lot of ways and might be piss hard to balance. But the idea is nice in itself I think.
RW: Runes & RuneWords, definately change. I think they messed up D2. Re-invigorating for the game yes, but... had they been there from the start a lot of items would have been utterly pointless, as they are now. I would make a lot less runes and make them usable for socket items or for example for getting certain skills or spells only. Possibly even not introduce them before late in the game (high level) as they would be superb as tradeables and take out less space in the bank than the huge piles of gold (which also attracts thieves, gnomes and scum)
Runewords you can take out back and have the chickens eat them.
Thus runes would be incredible and cool, but very rare and indeed worth a good bargain in the trades.
Another little suggestion in the world of items.
Instead of gambling, make a request system, where you tell a specific (and ofc annoying) NPC your items preferences. Once in a while he/she will then have an item of great worth and less often great power, which you can acquire for even greater ransom. Some items can even be available only through this method. But the general idea is having a money sink that is also attractive, all along throughout the game.
If you dont have the money for an item you want, there can be a reservation option of course involving a deposit, which will give you a number of days to collect the rest or forfeit the deposit.
Yes, I found the gambling system absolutely silly. :-)
That's my input to this interesting discussion.|||A lot of interesting and pretty well balanced ideas there rhay. I think you're asking too much though; the rare crafting system you describe would be neat but I doubt any design team would have the cojones to do anything that radical and customizible.
You say that everyone would have the same uberrares in the end: this isn't true for several reasons. First: Everyone wants a certain amount of certain stats. Everyone wants max resist, stats to use their stuff, etc. Those are pretty set in stone, but where you get them isn't. You might get some resists on your belt, and then maybe that leaves you open to find more discretionary stats like enhanced damage or FRW on other gear. Basically you want +145 resall, but each person will find it in different areas, making the items somewhat different in that regard; each person will cobble their own set of gear together to meet their own requirements. This brings us to our discretionary stats. Some people might lay more importance on +skills, or +max damage, CTC, whatever. The better mix of gear they have, the more they can search out those perfect gloves that give them +23 FR or better and also CTC life tap; or whatever. An even better pair might also have +Jav skills or %IAS. To the player who has 75 FR but is looking for some cold resist, dex to hit max block, and +AR? those gloves are useless even though to player 1 they were godly.|||Rares should not be the best items. Rares are easily gambled and monsters drop them regularly.
Crafts should be the best. They require the highest difficulty. You have to level your character to the desired level. You have to find the right magic item with the right level. You have to find the gems and runes needed. After all of that, you then roll the craft and odds are that you'll have a usable but fairly poor item.|||Rares are easily found, but good rares are harder to find than good uniques. This is like saying runewords should suck because you can easily find Els.
......
You forget something important: most people who are still playing D2 like the item system. Otherwise they would no longer be playing. And because Blizzard is more likely to cater to people still playing D2 than those who quit two months after LoD because they hated the item system, uniques will reign in D3 again.
Notice that 'blue' already mentioned uniques and their plans with them and has no idea yet what is going to happen with (or to) rares.
What 'should' happen and how much more fun rares might be is irrelevant: the b.net kiddie prefers overpowered uniques (and being overpowered, period) and needs easy item choices (get shako, hoto, nigma), so D3 will feature overpowered uniques and easy item choices.
This discussion is now over.|||I agree with several points here. IMO, the item hierarchy should be:
Damaged > Normal > Magical > Rare > Unique > Set > Crafted
So, you have the low quality discarded, rusty, or broken items. I think they are necessary. In a world filled with loot, you will find rusty flamberges and broken colossus blades.
Followed by 'vanilla' grade items that have no mods but may be ethereal or socketed. This adds flexibility to the start game with gems or things for temporary starter items.
Rares are next, but probably have the widest scope, so they still could be a top item but it's a very low chance. I like the ornate armors and executioner swords of old; that chance that the next rare find could be better than what you are wearing.. however small the chance is. I think rares could work well if the prefixes/suffixes had tiers.. so you dont' find a 'cruel' dirk or a 'massive' colossus sword. Tier 1 items can get tier 1 mods... etc.
Uniques should be unique, not just in name, but in modifiers - mods that can't spawn on rares. Like Buriza 'always pierces' or Iceblink 'freezes target' or Goblin Toe 'crushing blow'... forget about oskills or skill charges. So the Grandfather isn't just an old famous sword with regular mods, it's an old sword with unique mods - that's what makes it unique... not just the name, but the properties.
Mods that are very valuable, but may constitute a trade-off. Like slower weapon speed, but increased critical hit chance (Precise); or slower run/walk but crushing blow and open wounds (Devastating). These aren't negative modifiers, but - for the sword - it may not have IAS, but it has a 50% chance to crit for 2x total dmg. Makes you consider these items for some builds and some for not.. you know, can you compensate and get IAS on gloves, etc.
Sets should be high end and hard to obtain, providing cumulative bonuses that are well worth collecting. It would be cool if set pieces provided a bonus to finding additional pieces of the same set. Like the person above said with the sets wanting to reunite themselves, as if the spirit if the previous wearer exists within the pieces.
Then crafting. It could be expanded quite well, providing end game content as players try to obtain ingredients for recipes to make, potentially, the most kick *** items. But crafting is expensive. High end ingredients are in the top treasure classes. Sure, there are some lower level recipes, but it is moreso for late game.
And no runewords. Runes should fit into crafting rather than being exclusively words. Whether the current D2 system is liked by many people still playing is not the be all end all, since Blizzard and the like of Jay Wilson are trying to improve where needed and keep the core fun and addictiveness there. People will always find the elitist way from whatever system is put into place, whether it's shopping for cruels and socketing them, or gambling for +2 amulets or running pindle... it's up to Blizzard to come up with a good system considering all they have learned.
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