2012年4月21日星期六

Rares better than uniques - Page 3

A quick preface, all the numbers I came up with in my post were completely fictional, just to give a rough guideline for my argument.

Now, onto what I was arguing.

You started out with one of the lines that I was indeed going to follow, that comparable rares can come from different base items, and this indeed gives them an advantage as you say.

However, if we now take this back to D2, we all Normal and Exceptional Barb helms which can be comparable stat wise (due to the uprgarde recipe as you mention). So thats 10 types of Helm that we are looking at.

A generalization (since I'm not putting enough effort in to collect all the numbers, and I do realise this will therefore make my arguments less valid), is that each item drops at the same rate, so for each Arreats face we get, we have 20 Rare Helms of each type, minus the non-failed set Avenger Guards, so lets take you number of 195 Rare Barb Helms for each Arreats face.

Now, slowly, moving onto the part that you missed out (non-intentionally I'm sure). This is where my numbers become purely hypothetical.

Now you want (correct me if I'm wrong here please), that for every AF (195 rare Helms), there to be at least one Rare that can compare to AF. I say at least one, because if the chance for a Rare to be good was the same or worse as AF, people would just use AF (as is the case now).

So we have a comparable rare dropping at roughly the same time as AF.

Now all this does is mean that instead of everyone wearing an AF, everyone is wearing a Rare helm with roughly the same mods as AF, which drops slightly more often. This means that we're in almost exactly the same situation, but now its easier for the item to be found, meaning more people will have it, and the game becomes easier.

And this is the problem that I have with making godly rares easier to find. If we can find a rare that is as good as AF as easy as AF, why have AF at all? With a bit more effort (say twice as many runs), you'll find a Rare with stats that FAR surpass AF.

I do understand that we have the inverse at the moment, no one using Rares since AF is so good, so why have rares? And yes, I do think SOMETHING needs to be done about this discrepency. But I don't think that the best way to deal with this is to increase the chance that a godly rare will drop.

I like the system as it stands now. Uniques being the everymans item, an easy thing to be in guides since it has fixed stats, yet rares having the possibility to beat (most) uniques.

Take the following helm, I'd rather use this than an AF any day;

Rare Circlet:

+2 Barb skills (Berserker)

2 Sockets (Mechanics)

30% ED (Deadly)

30% FRW (Of Speed)

+20 Strength (Of The Titan)

+20 Dexterity (Of Perfection)

When combined with other equipment to counteract its weaknesses, the resulting build could (would), be more powerful than a build using AF.

So in summary, I would agree with you that Godly Rares should be easier to find than they are now, but I still believe that finding a Rare with stats to compare to AF (or whatever) should take maybe 1.5x the time, 3x the time might find something with stats that are better than an AF, and 5x the time might find a rare which will blow AF out of the water.

This means that we still have Uniques for guides, and helping out Newbs, having a specific name to aim for, yet the absolute top items are Rares (as they are in most slots now).|||It's good to see we're more or less in agreement; I hate to leave a conversation with someone who has a well thought argument without coming to some middle ground, but It appears you have my position slightly mistaken. I'm not arguing that rares arent good enough; I'm arguing that uniques are too good. I don't think a unique should spawn with 5 attributes that are all equal to or better than what you could find on a rare; I think it makes the game more boring.

For example:, Arreats has

+2 Barb Skills (the best you could hope for on a rare helm of any sort)

+2 Combat Skills (Also the best you could hope for on a rare helm; the catch being you couldn't roll this and berserker on the same item)

30 resall (The best you could possibly hope for on a rare circlet is 20 iirc)

20% bonus to AR (Uhh, good luck. No comprable stat on a rare)

3%-6% Life Steal (actually I think a Circ could get a slightly better 8%)

30% FHR (this is a great stat and IIRC a helm can only spawn with 20%)

20 str (Best you could get on a rare is 20 as well)

20 dex (Same)

260-200% Edef (comprable to what you would find on a well rolled rare)

So out of 7 stats, 3 (Edef, Str, and Dex) are already equal to the best possible roll you could get from a a rare (If memory serves. I used to love mathing d2 but it's been a long time so if I'm wrong on the exact numbers then feel free to tell me)

Another 2 (Resall and FHR) are about 50% better than the best possible rare roll for that stat.

LL is slightly better on a rare but, the %ar bonus is completely unattainable on a rare. Neither of those are really dealbreakers though.

The barb skills are equal, and a fantastically lucky roll with staffmods on a barb helm would more than offset the loss of +combat skills.

The point is that if you want to make rares competitive, don't boost them.... just don't make stupidly good items like Arreats Face so extremely easy to get. For the Afs rarity... It should have ALL of its attributes cut by about 66% across the board (not now, who cares about patching d2 at this point, I just mean if, say... they were making a sequel, and wanted to balance things a little better next time around) For a mix of stats that good I would want AF to be a Conqueror Crown or Guardian Crown instead of a high end exceptional which can drop from NM Meph (I think).

The only real boost I'd give to rares is to allow them to spawn with a few extra mods like %pdr and -enemy resist, lower enemy defense, that sort of thing. And for the love of god, get rid of the ridiculous charges of firebolt or chain lightning. Limit the charges to useful things, like enchant, teleport, summons, chilling armor, etc. Its one thing to have mods that most classes don't need but to have mods which no player in the history of d2 has ever used in a serious capacity is just dumb. I'd also like it if they made the %proc of damaging spells high enough to be somewhat useful, especially for spells like nova and fireball. A meteor 2% or 5% of the time is cool, but a nova 5% of the time is just annoying.

That circlet is nice... have you ever found one? Also, the AF is still debatably better for PvM because the main thing your circ has which owns AF is FRW, and AF has a lot more armor... unless you're a berserk barb I guess.|||Ah, ok. I do apologise for mistaking your position on the subject.

Now that I know your correct position, I must say that I agree with you to a certain degree.

Items like AF etc are pretty overpowered when compared to most rares etc.

On the flip side, stuff like Tyraels Might, Stormspire, Ghostflame, Cranebeak etc are underpowered (when compared to a mediocre rare or unique, let alone a godly one).

So your solution of making AF a Conq Crown instead of a Slayer Guard would make it much harder to find. Would this satisfy you?

If yes, what about the underpowered uniques, should they be easier to find?

What about if uniques were to stay as powerful as they are now, but were to be more "themed", more items like Dragonscale, Wolfhowl etc.

If uniques were to stay as powerful as stuff like AF, but be for very specific builds, while rares had a lot of useless pre/suffix's removed and became a more generalised item, would that solve the problem in your eyes?

Finally, onto the circ I posted. No, I've never found anythign remotely like that. Yes the stats are based round PvP, since in PvM a Barb could wear a Biggins Bonnet and pwn face :P, and I prefer PvP.

As for the %age AR on AF, a circlet can get the Visionary prefix, for 1% AR per clvl, so 90% AR at level 90. Replace mechanics with that and you have a rare with only 1 socket, but mass extra AR if its needed.|||Quote:








Plain old blue items had the throne for some slots in D2 classic. As I recall, something like a Cruel Colossus Blade of Alacrity was pretty much as good as weapons got, because rares couldn't go above 150% ED...




duh 1.10 newbies .. 1.09 is not classic.

Many here that compare D2 classic today to LOD are pretty much Off topic. Topic was most likely time before LOD when even classic was different. Back then only a few specific builds and classes wanted those uniques and rares you found were more often the better quality than the crap you find nowadays.(quilted armor from hell act4 with +2life +4 mana attacker takes damage of 1)

Some of the kickiest rares cannot be found anymore. I still have some of them saved on my old characters. War Boots 8xdef 18str 48 light res 3x fire res, war gaunts with base def 19dex 12 str 2xfire 2xcold res 10% ias. Can't get that high resists anymore or strenght on boots and that high str/dex on gloves. Belts with str/dex are gone, helmets only give max 40 life.. had a helm with 59 life 34light 23fire 15 cold res.

Also when LOD came the classic uniques were heavily boosted. Goldskin for example got about 200-300 more defence so now even a barb might consider it as a worthy armor. But some uniques were also nerfed like the iceblink that aberdark so much hyped here. The freeze only works properly when you are about 5 levels higher than the monsters you are killing. Haven't really seen any barbs using it since LOD came. Before that it was very popular but not popular on HC since with low def you were doomed if a timeout happened.. with high def you had better chance to survive.

In almost any case these uniques were only popular in softcore since surviving wasn't important. Rares were superior compared to uniques in hc, only the few classes and few slots were these must to have uniques to make the character work. Like sacrificing resists and stats and life on gloves for faster cast rate(magefist), which actually increased your performance since you moved better and killed faster. Sojs yeah who wouldn't want these for a caster whose damage in this game only depends on your skill level and cast rate.

So in short: The pre-lod time quality rares were a lot easier to achieve than nowadays classic. Nowadays LOD rares can be very powerfull but are extremely hard to get.. you might not see these ever, while pre-lod the quality rares were around a lot more.

Just have a system like pre-lod when the game was pretty much perfect imo. When lod came the game was ruined.|||I am baffled... This is based on the premise everyone and their mother and brother finds kick *** uniques. If you don't see the error in that I can't help you. The better the item the harder to find. Nothing is wrong with enigma. Just make it so hard to get only a few will get it.|||Akse, first, where did I hype Iceblink so much? I mentioned that it has hit freezes target, which makes it worth using for some people. Thats hardly hyping. I'm not going round posting that Iceblink is "ZOMFG OP"!

Pre-LoD 99% of Barbs were using it since its OP, nowdays I've seen some Barbs and Zons use it, not many, but some.

So thats an example of your precious pre-LoD classic where a Unique was better than rares.

Stuff like Magefist hasn't changed much, SoJ either, so they were still used in place of rares.

And finally, you really want everyone running around with "quality rares" because they're so easy to attain? Where's the fun in that? Might as well make it like GW where EQ doesn't matter if its ridiculously easy to obtain.

The system now is almost perfect, change rares so that they're more themed and less all rounded, remove SOME useless mods on rares, and that way rares will still be the top items, but hard to find.

Sein Schatten, I agree that the problem isn't OP stuff like Enigma, but that its so easy to obtain (due to duping, which is the major issue with the so called OP runewords etc).

Maybe the issue isn't so much with the actual items but the drop rates then? Increase rare drop rates, decrese unique drop rates (maybe 1/2 they are now), and the problem is resolved.

The issue isn't as large as Akse seems to think it is, that LoD ruined everyone and everything, if it ruined it so much, how come so many more people play LoD than classic? Or how come so many people still play at all instead of playing pre 1.07 classic on SP if it was so good?|||I don't think the Arreats face would be 100% balanced even if it were in a much higher TC, but it would help a lot, enough that I wouldn't complain about it! This hold true for all the class specific Exceptional Uniques obviously, except Lycanders, lol. If they were in a much higher TC and also had a much more common counterpart (a la Tyraels might/ Templars Might) then yes I think that would be ideal. On the Bright side, Bartucs and Titans would be even better and Lycanders would maybe even be worth using if you found it. On the down side you might have to buff some of those items a little bit with a slight -req% stat; 10-15% would be sufficient.

I have to disagree with you about Enigma. It's way OP. Give it teleport charges instead of the skill, or else nerf the Str bonus, the FRW and change the defense to %edef. Honestly if the runes were the same and the only additional ability the RW gave were +1 to teleport then people would still use it. (+5% max life, 8% PDR, 15% damage to mana, +1 to teleport? Yes please I'll take it... unless I'm a sorc of course)

If duping weren't an issue Enigma would be MORE op not less, especially for PVP. As it is Enigma is pretty much a no-brainer first choice as far as PVP gear goes for most classes. If it's rarer then it just ups the wealth requirement for competitive PVP.|||Quote:








If duping weren't an issue Enigma would be MORE op not less, especially for PVP. As it is Enigma is pretty much a no-brainer first choice as far as PVP gear goes for most classes. If it's rarer then it just ups the wealth requirement for competitive PVP.




Throwing numbers out of my behind

Okay, remove teleport and make it overall less powerful (arguable, teleport for everyone is a bit too much.). But let's say there are a total of 12 enigmas (or a few more, D2 is old ) up to now how can that be so overpowered?|||Pretty overpowered if you have to duel against one of those 12!

I'm just saying the level of overpoweredness doesn't change. Just the amount of time that you would personally have to deal with it. The rarity-power argument holds true for PVM, I think you're right there. However for PVP I think the reverse is true; game balance requires that OP items be more common not less. It just gives too big of an advantage to whoever can afford it.

You can say that wealth always affords a large advantage in PVP but not to this degree. For example many classes prefer small charms of Vita (20 life) and therefore a perfect charm of Vita is fairly expensive. Certain prefixes charms of Vita are even more expensive, especially scintillating or sharp (IIRC). However a 3 of 5 scintillating and 16 of 20 vita Small charm can be had for a fraction of the price of a perfect roll, while still granting a good percentage of the bonus. The same can be said for low quality rolls of most items.

There is no such thing as a "cheap" enigma and it grants a gigantic advantage in PVP, allowing wealthy players to buy a very large advantage.|||Quote:








Pretty overpowered if you have to duel against one of those 12!

I'm just saying the level of overpoweredness doesn't change. Just the amount of time that you would personally have to deal with it. The rarity-power argument holds true for PVM, I think you're right there. However for PVP I think the reverse is true; game balance requires that OP items be more common not less. It just gives too big of an advantage to whoever can afford it.

You can say that wealth always affords a large advantage in PVP but not to this degree. For example many classes prefer small charms of Vita (20 life) and therefore a perfect charm of Vita is fairly expensive. Certain prefixes charms of Vita are even more expensive, especially scintillating or sharp (IIRC). However a 3 of 5 scintillating and 16 of 20 vita Small charm can be had for a fraction of the price of a perfect roll, while still granting a good percentage of the bonus. The same can be said for low quality rolls of most items.

There is no such thing as a "cheap" enigma and it grants a gigantic advantage in PVP, allowing wealthy players to buy a very large advantage.




Ah, but this is assuming that those 12 players would play in Public games.

Which is highly doubtful, when you look at the number of private leagues etc that are around. Then theres the distinct possibility that those players would be PvMers rather than PvPers, simply due to the huge amount of PvM they must have played to have obtained two HR's etc...

Secondly, if they DO play in Public games, there is always the option to leave and join a new game, just like you would if someone NKed you etc.

IMO without duping, the extreme limited nature of these OP runewords would be all thats needed to level the playing field. Then there's also the decision of which RW to make etc. It'd be a much better system IMO.

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