End game: really hard low level dungeons.

[:1]Hi.

End game in D2 more or less came down to having a high level character outfitted with high level gear, nomatter whether the purpose of that character was to magic find or level grind, etc,... Except for PvP where there duels between mid and low level characters respectively having valuable mid level and low level gear (which would otherwise not be nearly as valuable).

That got me thinking how to make PvM more interesting and varied, specially end game (as i don't really PvP, albeit thanks to Arena i'll probably give it more of a serious shot in D3).

Anyways, why not include low level dungeons. Now exactly what could these special dungeons entail, what could they bring to the game high level dungeons found in hell can't? Simple, it asks for the player to make powerful (even specialized) low level characters with their respective powerful low level gear and thus creates a totally new pool of possible character builds and sought after equipment.

You might be asking why one can't just tackle these dungeons with either an ordinary character or a (poorly, but relatively overpowered for these special dungeons) high level character? Simply by not allowing anyone above a certain predetermined level access to these special dungeons.

For example, say there is a special level 20 dungeon found in normal difficulty. This dungeon cannot be entered by anyone above the level 20. Also, this dungeon is exceptionally (to impossibly) hard for any poorly build level 20 character that doesn't have top of the line level 20 equipment.

But why even bother with these low level dungeons? Because they could drop valuable loot comparable to high level dungeons, but then maybe different as in having a higher chance at dropping specifically great and very rare mid level gear you'd have difficulty finding elsewhere. This is also a way to make good gear across the board rare and thus more valuable (instead of being able to gather piles upon piles of 90% of all unique gear simply by running one boss like Mephi).

Another idea to make these special dungeons feel... more special... is by making them a random or difficult to find/open (sesame) occurance or combination thereof. Kinda like the Diablo Clone event (but then less anal and random, stuff can come in the form of clues or side quests, etc, use your imagination). You could make some of these dungeons so freaking hard that they almost beg to be conquered by special teams build for them.

What i can also imagine is these dungeons to be much much larger then your average dungeon. In fact it would be cool if these dungeons were so large that they have their own specially made savehaven consisting of your personal chest (but without the services of your vendors) and a waypoint connecting to one or two found deep within the dungeon (but without connecting to any waypoints outside the dungeon). If you exit the dungeon you are forbidden to enter it again in the same game, but so long you save & exit when inside the dungeon you remain in the dungeon.

Some of these dungeons could have a special NPC like vendor, for example a certain opportunistic half-demon who doesn't feel dirty "betraying" his fellow kind for the hero's gold. Etc, etc, etc,...

A small, completely practical, suggestion to save someone the frustration of accidentally leveling their character too highly is a level lock feature which could come in the form of a service one of the vendors provides.

It would prevent you from gaining any further xp and thus leveling, which you ofcourse want to avoid when you want to remain a certain level to play these dungeons.

You can ofcourse unlock leveling again by that same vendor.

Recap: Special dangerous but rewarding low level dungeons which are not to be entered by higher level characters found in normal and nightmare difficulties. These dungeons spell certain doom for anyone foolish enough to enter one when unprepared. Plus level lock feature.

Long post is long. More words even though i have nothing more to say. Stop reading. Bye.|||I'm not sure I see the mass appeal in this idea...

I'm not even completely sure I see the point - Is it to outfit characters for low level duelling? Is it to allow characters to trivialise the next zone they visit? Is it to allow characters some fun encounters without massive time investment? (If its the last one, I would think fun/hard encounters could be implemented without necessitating a level lock - I mean, its up to the player to choose when they go into any encounter, if they want to crush it, then why stop them? With good gear progression (that is, better than D2s) an old boss would drop little of value).|||Not everything has to have mass appeal, unless you want the game to become ridiculously bland. Low level duelling didn't have mass appeal, but it existed, right.

Anyways, i'm not sure you actually read the post.

Q: "Is it to outfit characters for low level duelling?"

A: Not specifically, but i could see some of these dungeons having a better chance at dropping good low level gear. But these dungeons don't need to be restricted in dropping only low level gear as they are ridiculously hard (which i already explained). Think of it as a rewarding high level dungeon, except you can only enter it with a low level character.

Q: "Is it to allow characters to trivialise the next zone they visit?"

A: No, as these dungeons aren't simply "a zone characters visit". These are special and hard dungeons you wouldn't even dare to think entering with a crappy untwinked character.

These dungeons aren't ment to be entered in the meta-game, they are ment to be end-game material.

Q: "Is it to allow characters some fun encounters without massive time investment?"

A: That's an idea that could work in conjuction with these dungeons. For example one could encounter a very difficult random encounter monster which has a chance to drop a key that can be used to unlock one of these dungeons. But that's not the reason of my suggestion, the reason is to give players a much more varied and interesting end-game, as opposed to outfitting virtually all end-game characters with almost identical high level gear to be able to run the same area/boss over and over again.

"I would think fun/hard encounters could be implemented without necessitating a level lock -

I mean, its up to the player to choose when they go into any encounter,..."

Yes, it's up to the player whether they wish to go into these dungeons or not.

"...if they want to crush it, then why stop them? With good gear progression."

No, that's just silly as it would mean these dungeons not to be rewarding end-game (it would be silly to have really easy dungeons you can get all the phat loot from, wouldn't it?), and that's exactly the point of them.|||I recall, while playing Torchlight, that you could get tons of optional side quests. Perhaps that could help here w/ D3? Imagine getting a side quest/dungeon as a drop? (Via some scroll that spawns a portal or such). That would be super fun, methinks. And then you could coordinate a time with friends to do that dungeon.

Hell, if they wanted some really uber end-game stuff they could even have really tough dungeons as drops in the game that require really good players/end game gear to be able to clear (with an appropriate reward at the end of course!).

-Floyd|||How would you stop leveling for those particular characters ?

"Oops, I killed a fallen, and leveled, I can't go in the dungeon anymore..."

*whine*

Wouldn't it just be the various levels/dungeons that exist in hell, but toned down to normal and nightmare difficulties ? The same types, but maybe smaller, and all, with a maxlevel cap ?

G.R.D. (Much like Median XL has its uberlevels in all difficulties, eventhough you don't go in in normal/nightmare that much)|||I like all the aspects of this idea.|||Sounds like a mode of play specifically for people who twink. I think hardcore mode basically does what you are talking about though.|||@ GoldenredDragon: The leveling-lock i spoke about would allow for a player to not gain xp if he/she doesn't wish to gain xp. The leveling-lock (and leveling-unlock) could be a service one of your vendors provides. Or it could be an innate ability a player can make use of whenever they want to stick to a certain level.

The dungeons would differ in that they're not ment to be traversed just by any normal/nightmare character in normal/nightmare difficulty. You avoid these dungeons the first few times you encounter them as they're surely mean death to anyone not prepared. These dungeons are hard, look at them as being the equivalent of Uber Tristram, but then for normal/nightmare difficulty. Obviously if they act as any other dungeon then any highlevel character could simply go to normal/nightmare difficulty and walz through them, which would defeat the purpose of these dungeons.

Their loot should atleast be as valuable as whatever loot you find in regular hell difficulty dungeons, the difference could be that you find a lot more valuable low/mid level loot in these dungeons.

@ craezyjim: Well, apart from time (rushing through the game with a highly twinked character) and extreme safety (to prevent death in hardcore) there's no other gameplay reason to seriously twink and think about low level character building. And it allows for repayability as there's little chance you're going to enter, let alone succesfully complete, such a dungeon in your first few playthroughs.

It's an idea that sets interesting goals (need to find the best a-level gear for b-character so that i can succesfully loot x-dungeon and hopefully find y-treasure).

Thanks hubb.